Intro: Hi! My name is Draye Redfern and this is the Ultimate Attorney podcast, the podcast for small law firms who want to create a thriving practice. Each week we will uncover the ways that you can exponentially improve your referrals and your marketing helping you generate more revenue and elevating your life and your law practice. In each episode we’ll tap into some of the closest guarded secrets from industry titans, thought leaders and legal specialists. Glad that you’ve tuned in and once again it’s time to help you become an Ultimate Attorney.   Draye:               Hey everybody! Draye Redfern here and welcome back to another episode in the Ultimate Attorney podcast. I’m so pleased to have you join us this week for this week’s guest Mary Jane Dykeman who’s a partner at the DDO Health Law Firm in Toronto, Ontario. Now, in this week’s episode we’re going to cover a variety of topics including why it may not be a good idea to follow the exact same path as every other attorney out there when it comes to operating your law practice. We’re going to discuss niching down instead of being a jack of all trades and we’re going to cover some of the ins and outs that are going to help you establish more balance inside of your law practice in order to achieve greater results. Now, maybe that means making more money, maybe that means working less hours. It doesn’t really matter what it means as long as it’s helping you to expand your own personal definition of success. So, I’m really glad that you’re here.   Now, let’s dive into another awesome episode of the Ultimate Attorney podcast.   Hey everybody! Draye Redfern here and welcome back to another edition of the Ultimate attorney podcast. I am really excited for today to share with you Mary Jane Dykeman who is a friend and an amazing attorney who really has some incredible insights to share with you on how you can improve your practice, lower some of your stresses and overall just lead a more balanced life.   Mary Jane, so glad that you’re here.   Mary Jane:         Thanks so much, Draye. I’m so pleased.   Draye:               So, Mary Jane is a friend of mine and we’ve actually built a course together on the Ultimate Attorney platform that we’ll talk a little bit about later in this podcast but I want to dive right and really talk about, Mary Jane, what made you pursue law in the first place?   Mary Jane:         I was very fortunate. My father is a lawyer of longstanding 50-year practice, now retired obviously. So, I had him as a role model and he was both practicing law and also running a multitude of other businesses in the town we lived in. So, I always saw him as an entrepreneur, as an employer, a member of the community and running a very busy law practice and back in the day he was a generalist. While I specialize in health law and it’s a very specific area, he actually had a general practice. He would be doing estates one day. He, as I recall, did criminal law and a murder trial, governance, family law, the full range. I saw how busy he was. We certainly saw the impact on family life and we saw all of the things that he put in place to be able to be part of the family while still doing all the things that he was doing. So, I had a great example and I think I decided at age 12 that’s precisely what I was going to.   Draye:               And then let’s go another step back, okay? Just the next step in that story. So, you had a great example of law, what it could do and what that could be yield for you. What made you basically take that next step and then go from your undergraduate to law school? Walk us through that law school journey and then where you kind of jumped to after law school.   Mary Jane:         Sure. So, in my undergraduate days I took a bioethics course as part of Philosophy course. That was really the genesis for me. I fell in love with the issues of health law and scarce resources and organ donation and transplantation and the ethics piece and did a year actually after my undergrad in that area in a Master’s program and then decided “Well, how do you make that very practical?” and it turned out that health law was just really starting at that point in time. In fact, I called all of the law schools and talked to the various deans and said “Do you have health law?” and it was very early in this particular domain but I was absolutely determined to turn that into a career and I’m very firmly convinced that there’s something for everyone in health law whether it’s corporate, whether it’s the people issues, the issues are very exciting. It was such a natural fit. I fell in love with it and I really never looked back. Every day brings another story, another issue and the people aspects are just incredible.   Draye:               And it’s really amazing. So, what I want to do I guess now is walk individuals through who are listening to what does your practice look like now. How many attorneys do you have? Are you strictly health law? What is the makeup of your law firm today?   Mary Jane:         Approximately 8 years ago I joined with another health law partner and we both had a history of being in-house legal counsel at hospitals, at large teaching hospitals. It made sense to put our heads together, get some space. I had gone out on my own, very early on, from the time that finished articles and was called to the bar, I really hung my own shingle and a lot of people said at the time “Well, you can’t do that yet. You need at least six or eight years” and my philosophy has always been you either do it or you don’t and I didn’t see any impediment to it. So, I went ahead on my own and then eventually I had the chance through that solo practice to go in house, really holding the seat of the in-house legal counsel and somebody might have away or out on leave and I had that experience as well. When I finished up with at least three of those in-house stints as part of this little practice, I joined forces with another lawyer and then we got the space and then we started bringing on other lawyers. My main partner now is a corporate commercial lawyer. She is the person who does not want to do all of the weird risk management and the morgue issues and the remains and the dueling families and everything else. She doesn’t want those parts of it. She likes hard core governance, corporate commercial pieces. So, we’re a great match, I would say. The two of us own the law firm and then we have a handful of other people working with us.   Draye:               So, as you initially took that first step and created your own law firm, what were some of the biggest hurdles or the challenges that you had to overcome that if you were to go back again that you could, at least knowing now, avoid if you had to do it again? So, basically taking that knowledge and extrapolating for someone who may have just graduated from law school or someone who is just early on in their law career that can really take some of your advice or knowledge, your trials and tribulations and really hopefully avoid some of those pitfalls themselves.   Mary Jane:         Well, I think one of the key aspects is don’t see limitations. Clearly, as a young person you want to get out and get the right training. Going to a big law firm makes sense in a lot of ways. You may not get as close client contact, for example, but you will get good robust training. There are other opportunities that exist as well. I would say don’t limit yourself to only the big firms although they are a great training ground. There are also other smaller firms where you may get a bit of independence and you’ll still get the training, you’ll be on your feet a little more and you’ll be expected to run with files, exercise impeccable judgment. There is that. And I’d say go forward and interview those firms yourself. It’s not just that they are interviewing you. And I just made a decision to run my practice out of my home, my clients could have cared less. Some people said “Oh, everyone wants that if you’re a solo person.” I think as long as you show up, you’re good, you do the work and you set the tone, then that is not an issue.   Draye:               Actually, want to talk about that a little bit because there are so many attorneys and small business owners outside of the field of law these days that are solopreneurs, that they’re a one-man shop or one-woman shop and spending two or three or four or five thousand dollars a month for office space doesn’t make sense for some individuals. Obviously that creates a little bit of a burden for some. They don’t know whether they need to have an office, a physical brick and mortar, or whether they need to actually just find some sort of way to just show up in the client’s boardroom or various offices. What would you say as someone who is starting out going through what you went through? What are some of the ways you basically overcame those hurdles or objections? Maybe it’s self talk but what are some of the ways that initially kind of thought past this self talk or these negative limiting beliefs?   Mary Jane:         Well, I have to be frank. I didn’t have a lot of limiting beliefs and maybe that was shortsighted but I didn’t see any reason that I could not set up a practice from my home which I did. I was very transparent with my clients. They didn’t care. What they cared about was, was the rate good, was the work great, again, did I show up and deliver on what I was meant to do – and I did. And actually, I think today it’s even more important because people are looking for value and you know I’ve spent a lot of time over the past months talking about the way you create value. They simply want to know that you can be relied on, that you’re accessible and that you’re delivering and they’re looking for a good price. So, I was able to set really good prices and deliver great work. And I have to tell a quick story of one time when I was at a Bar Association meeting and someone, a colleague who I had been at law school with who was at one of the big firms said to me “Well, I’ll buy you a drink” and I said “Oh, that’s very kind. I’ll get the next one.” He patted me on the shoulder and said “Well, don’t you worry about that. Someday when you have the word ‘partner’ written on your business card, you can buy me a drink.” And it gave me pause because I thought “Well, here’s a person who doesn’t appreciate that I practice from my home, and I pocket the vast majority of what I make.” If I bill by the hour which of course I did at the time, I am putting most of it in my pocket. I was making a lot of money and then it took me probably at least two years once we moved into a fairly pricey space and, again, all the things that go into running a practice – the human resources, the IT components – oh my goodness, all of a sudden it cost a whole lot more to practice law. So, it actually took these two years to get back to what I was making. Those were the good old days as far as I’m concerned.   Draye:               I love it. I want to actually dive a little bit deeper in that I suppose. If you were to go back basically throughout your entire law career, what is the one or maybe two things that you could distill or really just kind of get really laser focused on that can help other attorneys who may be starting out or trying to grow their practice or maybe they have even been in law for five or ten years and really are looking for some sort of strategy to hit that next level? What could you offer there?   Mary Jane:         Well, I had a call recently from someone who was saying “Should I be taking out ads?” and I said “I suppose that works, I don’t know.” I haven’t done the research to know whether there is a net effect in taking out ads and where you take them out in order to get the profile. I’ve personally found that because I spend a lot of time teaching, I’ve been teaching for probably most of my career, I took every opportunity early on to speak at conferences, to write whether it’s a text book or articles to have yourself out there, put yourself out there and I’d say we get a lot of calls from students and young lawyers and even people midway through their careers saying “Look, you’ve created a great profile. How did you do it?” and I say “Just get out there and do it.” – “Well, maybe I don’t have enough experience.” – “Well, anyone can do a case comment or write up a certain legislative development. Just get out there.” And the minute you’re out there, you don’t get off the circuit. People keep coming back to you as the go-to person. So, that I would say, and we’ve done a lot of publications over time, I’ve been running the Risk Management in Canadian Healthcare publication for years and publishing different authors and sometimes staying up late at night with the word count getting the content done but that’s the way you do it. You get in, you do it, you teach, you write, you get out there and it snowballs. It cannot help but advance your career because you get that profile.   Draye:               I totally 100% agree with this. When I really started with my media company, that’s exactly what I did is I actually spoke for free for various things multiple times just to build that initial traction because it wasn’t a revenue producing thing for me but I knew that the end result would be if I was put in front of 300 or 500 or 1000 people and I wasn’t maybe making any money to be there on stage, I know that a percentage of those people in the audience will hire me for my services. So, it’s almost forgoing those short-term wins for the long-term gains and the long term success and I think that’s exactly it but I want to go a little bit …   Mary Jane:         And you don’t have to go and spend that money to take out an ad that may or may not be seen. I don’t ever worry about all that. I didn’t get paid for that hour when I went out and spoke on some areas that I love and would love to do more work in and I think you just lead in that way and then people do come. You are top of mind for them and not everyone in your audience will be the ultimate decision maker who gets to hire you but boy, word of mouth makes a difference and you can position yourself as that expert out there.   Draye:               I 100% agree. I want to take that and actually extrapolate a little bit deeper. There are so many individuals and the number one fear for most people is public speaking over spiders or snakes or even death. So, what we’re some of the things that you initially had to overcome when it came to initially putting yourself out there? Was it confidence that you have to talk yourself up and boost that up? What did you do or was it just a natural gift you’ve always kind of had?   Mary Jane:         Well, I would hope it’s a natural gift. I would say I don’t have a lot of fear on that front now. I want to be prepared. You don’t want to be that person who is winging it. You need to know your audience and everything else. I never had that true trepidation but I’ve seen it in many other people and I think there are strategies. And you and I have talked a little bit about courses going forward that we have ready to assist attorneys where you can learn some of those tactics, you can learn the strategies to feel much more confident and I always say to people “You are the expert in your content. People are here to see you and if that gives you fear, then we can deal with the fear. We can create the strategies to make people more confident but it is your story to tell and as long as you’ve done your homework and the preparation.” And I really think that people don’t want attorneys to deliver dry material and to cite parts of statutes, you’ve got to build the human interest around it. It’s a natural gift in a way for me that I’ve been given not because of innate talent but because the area that I talk about is just so incredible. Health law just keeps giving. You can always find the human interest component to it. So, that makes it easier. If I were maybe working in tax or real estate, maybe someone would say differently but I bet there are tax attorneys and real estate attorneys out that that are saying “No, I could tell you horror stories. I could tell you the great things that happened in these areas as long as you love what you do and you are prepared and it’s your story you can get out there.” And there are other strategies that we’ll focus on a little further as we move the (Ultimate Attorney) platform along.   Draye:               I totally agree with that. When I first started speaking and doing a lot of that, I didn’t realize and [inaudible] you immediately have a certain amount of credibility just for being on that platform and a lot of individuals don’t necessarily acknowledge that or even give it enough credit and I think you’re exactly right that if an individual is on there and they’re rehearsed, you could be nervous as hack and honestly the first one or two or three or five or ten or twenty times you do something, it could be nerve wracking but eventually you know your content.   Mary Jane:         That’s natural.   Draye:               Yeah, exactly, with anything whether it’s the first time showing up in court, the first time arguing a case, the first time with anything, it’s scary at first and I think that initially I think you’re 100% right that it’s a wonderful way to start growing a law practice because you can get out there, you don’t have to invest in advertising spend or have to try to figure out various marketing funnels and the ins and outs. You can literally get out and deliver content that starts adding value from that first moment and I think that’s a wonderful way attorneys can kind of take that and implement into their own practice.   Mary Jane:         One of the things I did want to say though is that some of it is the preparation. So, I can remember one time in many years where I thought “Wow! I am not the master of what I’m talking about” and I generally don’t have to put a ton of work into a presentation as long as I know the content and in this case it did not roll off the tongue naturally. It was about loss ratios and insurance stuff that you love and I was getting up in front of a hospital board and I thought “I had better be very prepared here.” And I used to work in the courts before I went to law school. I was saving money to go to law school and I worked for a while in one of the courthouses and I used to see a lot of the students come in and they would be quite nervous and sometimes I would just take them around and show them “Here’s the room where you’re going to be. Here’s where the judge will sit. Here’s where the clerk is. Who’s on which side of the courtroom” and honestly knowing what you’re doing so you don’t feel like a fool or a moron is half of it. Just know your stuff, breathe, get yourself grounded, you are the person with what you need to deliver and be prepared for it and if it’s something as simple as going and checking out the venue or coming a little early, making sure that your presentation is top, run it through with someone that you trust, run it through whatever that is and there are lots of ways that we’ll talk about in due course – but just also be prepared and take away the things that you shouldn’t be worrying about on the day of. Just make sure that you’ve got that prepared. Something as simple as a courtroom and what the process will look like can help attorneys immensely.   Draye:               100% I agree with that and I think that that’s where I think a lot of attorneys once they graduate from law school, if they can go into those big law firms or medium-sized firms to know and walk into some of those processes and have some guide but I think, just like you mentioned, there’s a lot of opportunity for them in the smaller firms because maybe there could be more handholding, more time to spend to really take someone by the hand and lead them through that process. I wanted to bring that up because I feel the natural inclination is for so many people to jump out of law school to either 1) hang up their own shingle or 2) jump into big law just because that’s what everyone else does. So, I think that it’s important to know … Warren Buffett has a saying that when people get into investment, he gets out or when people get out, he gets in because that’s where the opportunity lies. And so, I think that it’s just important to kind of bring that up and at least circle back to it because I think you’re exactly right. I think there’s so much opportunity for young or even relatively experienced attorneys, even if they want to take a different direction or different area of practice inside of law, to consider that different option instead of just jumping into the big pond where you’re a small fish. You can at least make waves and really bring some large impacts on the small and the medium-sized firms. So, I would really love that advice.   Mary Jane:         Yeah and I think there are some niche areas. Let’s go back to the example of my father – Exceptional practice over decades being a generalist but there are niche areas and if you are willing to invest the time, there’s a group that I know of and they have refocused their practice on medical marijuana because that is a new area to practice and as these areas emerge, whatever they happen to be (it does not have to medical marijuana) there is an opportunity and anyone can be the expert. That’s the thing. There is no inherent trait that says “Oh, I shall be the expert.” You can decide but you have to invest the time and the energy into it to make that. So, that could be true of the new attorneys or mid-career or even closer to the end of a career. If somebody really wants to focus in or shift their practice or, as we’ve talked about in our (Attorney Essentials) course, decide that they no longer want to do certain areas of practice and do the things that they love that bring them some joy and also reward them financially, I think there’s every opportunity and there are all kinds of tools and ways to do that.   Draye:               It’s so funny you mention that because this is something I actually teach a lot and we’ve actually talked about in great depth is, it’s better to niche down to have success in some sort of area of practice or anything in business because it’s great to be a hero to few than a nobody to everybody and I think that’s really important because if you niche down and you are doing health law, you’re doing just divorces or just corporate litigation or at least maybe just a few areas of practice instead of being that generalist to everybody, you know your content, you know the law in those areas significantly better than if you maybe handle one case a year or two cases a year and I think that’s really important because then all of a sudden you can craft your marketing and your messaging and your speaking or your advertising if you do that around exactly that and then you become the preeminent, the go-to individual for that type of law in wherever area or geographic area that individual may be. I think that that’s really important because a lot of attorneys have this … not even attorneys, a lot of business people have this shotgun approach where they come out and feel that they have to do everything – “I’m going to do it all because I need to, I need to keep the lights on, I need to pay rent, I’ve got to pay, you know, staff, I’ve got to do all these things” and it’s a hard transition to go from you’re being everything to just maybe a few things and narrowing that focus but I think it’s a really important thing to consider when you’re hanging up your own shingle or even just operating inside of an existing law firm.   Mary Jane:         Yes, if you want to reshape your practice, I think it’s a very fair point to say you may not be able to niche down so tightly that you only do one thing because, as you said, you’ve got to keep the lights on, you’ve got to keep the practice going but part of what you and I have been talking about at length is doing this in a very conscious way, making some good choices and analyzing very closely “Look, what is it that actually makes me money and is easy to do and maybe it’s not the thing that I love most but maybe we will keep that as a bread and butter as I start to niche down in another area and make that more profitable and lucrative” but you can’t just leave it out there and I think that is what a lot of attorneys do. Years go by, years and years pass and we don’t have to be all that conscious of the way we practice but I think we’re seeing a lot more burnout and I’m pretty convinced that we can get people to a spot where they really love what they do again, work well, work in a very savvy way but do some of the things that they like and keep the lights on and start to delegate some of the processes. And that is one of the challenges in any practice – how is it that you can sort it so that you’re not doing everything – get people around you and that’s one of the early lessons because certainly in those first number of years I did everything and I think that’s probably still my tendency because I can roll up my sleeves, I can do just about anything that I need to but is that the smartest use of time? So, get good people around you, delegate work or you can use technology where it makes sense but be more mindful of the way you practice.   Draye:               I think that’s brilliant. It’s actually a really wonderful transition to go into this next thing I want to talk about. I want to take a few minutes and talk about our Ultimate Attorney course and the Attorney Essentials course because I think that everything we’ve talked about really can kind of be taken at a deeper dive. We’ve talked a narrow focus with a lot of these various topics but I want to take a brief moment, maybe three or four minutes to talk about what your take is on the Attorney Essentials course and where that could best benefit an attorney through their practice whether they’re just starting out after law school or whether they’ve been in it for 10, 20, 30 years even, so basically how they can extrapolate some information to really attain more success, lower stress and overall just lead a more happy and fulfilled life.   Mary Jane:         I’m absolutely thrilled to be we’re working with you on the Ultimate Attorney generally and more specifically this Attorney Essentials course that we’ve put together because it’s almost like ‘kismet’. We were talking on the phone one day last summer, I was talking about the fact that “Look, it’s time to reshape my own practice. There are so many areas where we can use technology whether it’s video, whether it’s writing books, whether it’s doing projects rather than billing by the hour” and I said it out loud “I’m at that juncture. I’m at a point in my practice and in my life, I have kids who are young teenagers, I have elderly parents. I want to change this because I also don’t think the pace is sustainable to be working around the clock with the billable hour, means that there’s a lot of sacrifice and every attorney is going to know that there will be long hours but really there comes a point where you have to get a bit smarter about it.” And I had coasted along thinking “You know, I’m being pretty smart and it’s going really well and it’s financially rewarding” but here was this moment in time. And so, when you said you were building the Ultimate Attorney platform and focusing a lot on the marketing and we were talking about these broader elements and literally buckled down to just do this course so that people actually focused, take that pause that perhaps they haven’t. I think there’s that niggling sensation with every attorney that they need to do this, we all know we need to do this, we need to take a hard look to decide what’s it going to look like going forward because so many attorneys leave law and a lot of young attorneys leave by about Year 5 and I find that very sad. Law is such a rich, rewarding wonderful area to work in and it’s always going to serve you well even if you take it into other endeavors. That’s great but if you’re leaving it not because you want to spread your wings and fly in some other areas, if you’re leaving it in a place of despair, we haven’t really served you well, have we? So, that really was the impetus for the Attorney Essentials course and as you build out Ultimate Attorney even more broadly, we really need people to take a hard look to decide why did they get into law, did it really give them what they wanted and if it didn’t, what can they do about it. And you and I have had the hard discussions. We’ve put out there some of the toughest things around mental health and wellness, addiction. We’ve talked about how you retain good staff, how you keep the staff rewarded and happy and productive. We really are worried that people will get to the end of their careers and not have a lot to show for it and again, I think it’s time. We all know it and I think that people will recognize that out there if they’re ready to jump in and make their way to the course, there is everything about the marketing and creating the value and getting away from the billable hour but some of the more fundamental pieces going right back, it’s like peeling an onion, let’s go right back to the beginning and then we’re going to take you through to where you are now so you can be that preeminent person in your practice and in your firm.   Draye:               Yeah I love it and it’s so true. I think we spent a lot of time really developing the course that no matter where an attorney was in their career, they could pull some sort of golden nugget almost from every lesson to achieve more success, more balance, lower that pressure, lower the noise and really just lead a more fulfilled life and be happier inside of their practice and what they do. And obviously lots of tactics, we have sales tactics and marketing tactics and plenty of other fun stuff along the way. I think it’s a really great course a lot of attorneys could benefit from.   Mary Jane, before we wrap up, are there any parting thoughts that you want to leave the attorney audience with?   Mary Jane:         Law was a great choice. Law is something that I love; and I want to continue to love it. So, the pause that I’ve taken and that I’m encouraging other attorneys to take is not to say that you are going to ultimately have to step away from this thing that you’ve invested so much time, money, energy, sacrifices around family and other personal goals to achieve. I am very happy with what we’ve done but I think that this course in particular, really I’m your avatar, I’m that person who is exactly at that juncture when you said “Here’s what it might look like.” That’s why it’s so exciting and we really need the people who are ready to take that look to come on board as we walk through the course and bring them back to a place where they really feel joyful, productive and contributing to society, all the while balancing personal life. And I appreciate, it’s no mean feat. This is not something that necessarily happens overnight but it’s very exciting. It’s very exciting to be part of something that is potentially so big and with such impact. It’s going to change lives, I’m convinced.   Draye:               You’re totally true. We’ll lean into more of how people can find the Ultimate Attorney, the Attorney Essentials course in the show notes below and also kind of include the transcripts and a lot of the various things we talked about in the show notes.   Mary Jane, thank you so much for being here. I think this has been one wonderful show that a lot of people can take a lot of value from. How can they find you or connect with you going forward or how can they get a hold of you if they have questions to ask of you?   Mary Jane:         My general line 416-967-7100, extension 225, mjdykeman@ddohealthlaw.com and otherwise through both Ultimate Attorney and Cove Academy (www.coveacademy.com, a training platform, which I work with as well).   Draye:               Wonderful! Mary Jane, thank you so much for being here. And, listeners, I hope you got a lot of value out of this show. There’s a lot of incredible things that we talked about. If you want to take a deeper dive, I thoroughly and strongly suggest that you purchase the Attorney Essentials course because it’s everything that we talked about but in a much deeper dive. So, Mary Jane, all the best, thank you so much and we’ll talk to you soon.   Mary Jane:         Thanks so much, Draye.   Outro: Well, what do you think? Each episode of The Ultimate Attorney podcast is jam packed with numerous insights that could help you improve your law practice and I hope that this episode was no different. If you feel as though you got a lot of value out of this episode, then please subscribe on iTunes or on Stitcher or you can simply visit UltimateAttorney.com/Podcast.   Now, don’t forget to share this podcast with other attorneys who may benefit from these lessons. If you’d like to access more resources, then please visit UltimateAttorney.com and don’t forget to connect with me and the rest of the Ultimate Attorney community on social media. I look forward to seeing you next week on another awesome episode of the Ultimate Attorney podcast.   We’ll see you next week.